Editor’s Note: The following is a conversation between David Spangler and his daughter Maryn Spangler, hosted by James Tousignant for Lorian’s Uncommon Conversations podcast. This transcript has been edited for clarity and the introductory and ending material in the audio version of the podcast has been omitted. You can learn more about the Uncommon Conversations podcast and subscribe here.
David Spangler: This conversation arose out of an earlier conversation that Maryn and I had just comparing different worldviews between her generation and mine, seeing both where they were congruent, where there were similarities, and where they differ. Maryn, how would you like to go with this? Would you like to start and speak for the whole of your generation [chuckles] while I speak for the old fuddy duddies?
Maryn Spangler: I feel like I can I can speak first.
David: Okay
Maryn: I’ll jump in on that.
David: Thank you.
Maryn: The things that I see and feel and experience going on in my generation is, there's this big focus on personal development, self development–deep healing on our psyche, inner child, how we show up in the world. There’s this intense focus on personal healing, but there's this huge disconnection from the world as a whole. And sometimes, I wonder, just from my own experience of being in a body, I wonder how much of this is just that with the rise of the Internet and intense globalization, it’s just overwhelming to think in that large of a scale. It's overwhelming to be so interconnected. And so I see a lot of people that are more intensely focused on smaller individual issues–because if I can advocate for myself, then I know that at least my world, my small world is safe. There’s this almost wall, this almost block, this resistance to experiencing that we are all so deeply interconnected. A lot of the circles that I personally run in are with people that are trying to help people. I know a lot of healers, I know a lot of personal development people. And even there, the focus is so on the individual that when I see someone who is talking about how does this affect the whole, it's so different, and they usually don't get that much response. It's not in mode right now. That’s what I'm seeing right now.
David: Of course, we're talking in abstractions here in a way, because any given generation is a complex critter that has people have all kinds of persuasions. But because I remember back in the 60s, I was working at the time in the San Francisco Bay Area and that was at the time that Humanistic Psychology and Transpersonal Psychology were coming to the forefront, particularly there in the Palo Alto, Menlo Park area, which was basically where I was living. I knew a number of the people who were pioneers in that area. There was this interesting kind of controversy because, on the one hand, with the development of humanistic and transpersonal psychologies, there was a lot of focus on the individual, on individual development on self-actualization–the Maslow book on peak experiences and self-actualization was very popular, and it was also a fairly new idea. People were interested in the hierarchy of needs and getting your needs met in order to provide the foundation for greater and greater levels of awareness and engagement.
And on the other hand, there was the anti-war movement and there was the Civil Rights movement, which were very oriented towards larger collectives and larger social responsibility. The Bay Area at that time was interesting because on one side of the Bay you had the San Francisco Peninsula, where all the psychological and, to some extent, spiritual stuff was going on and it was very much oriented toward individual development. And then on the other side of the Bay was Berkeley, where you had the student sit-ins and the attempts to take over the university and the anti-war riots and all of that.
There was this kind of splitting of my generation, between those who were dropping in and those who were taking part in larger social things. And during that time, as you say, there was this movement towards communities. Kids began forming intentional communities. And of course, the one that I became involved with Findhorn, became one of the most famous at the time.
There was a sense that a new world was was possible. Something new was emerging. You could engage politically and socially and civilly and you could make radical changes. Things were changing, change was possible. And that drew out a lot of idealism and energy towards acting in relationship to the whole and the sense of ecological awareness was dawning around that time with Rachel Carson's Silent Spring book and awareness of the damage of pesticides and other chemicals and just a dawning realization of how interconnected and interdependent we were with the natural environment around us.
In essence, it was an exciting time in terms of feeling that things were changing and transformation was happening. And of course, the New Age movement sort of surfed on that and gave that a particular language and a particular form.
I think part of the challenge today is that the status quo seems very set even though there's obviously change going on, particularly with climate. Yet at a political and social level, things seem more frozen and people feel disempowered rather than empowered. That was the one thing that we felt in the 60s, was a deep sense of empowerment, however illusory it might have been. But in many cases, it wasn't. I mean, you look back, and you see the changes that people made in civil rights and in politics and so on.
It's a different wave, isn't it, it’s a different need, that the world has. In my own case, that whole period from 1970 until about 1990, that's 20 years when I was involved with the New Age movement and that was very much oriented towards taking care of the whole but it also had that individual aspect of self development. In fact, that was the thing that took me out of the New Age movement in the 90s–it shifted gears from being a movement towards cultural change and became a movement toward individual psychic development, in particular psychological development. But then, in the 90s, my own work changed to focus more on individual development. In a way Incarnational Spirituality is an attempt to blend both of those–to have that strong individual foundation and yet to have that in service to a larger whole. This whole idea of synergy in which the part and the whole are both benefited, they’re mutually beneficial–it’s a very important part of I.S.
Maryn: So you got to really experience eyes wide open that shift into individual focus.
David: Yes, yes, I did. And just like anything, the pendulum swings in ways that it goes from one extreme to another extreme. And like you were saying, there was this extreme that said the individual doesn't really matter, what matters is the community or the larger whole. And then the other extreme is saying, well, no, it's my way or the highway, never mind what's happening in the world.
Maryn: I am always hearing stories from that time–not necessarily from you, but from different students that you've had and different people that I meet from that generation of growing up in the the hippie age, the hippie times where you have these intentional communities, as you were saying, that then became a little cult-like, and a little damaging on the individual level for a lot of people. Amazing aspirations that maybe couldn't be played out perfectly, if that's even a thing, just because of this disconnection from the individual as well.
David: That’s exactly right. There were certainly instances of what I would think of as community trauma, or I should say, the individual experienced trauma in community.
James Tousignant: It also sounds like there was a time when individuals felt empowered enough to say that we can make a difference in the world, and we can make a difference in this way. And then they went through this period of yes, they could make a difference, and they made a difference in some very significant ways, and then it looked like there wasn't enough foundation for that to hold in the individual, there wasn’t a strong sense of what in I.S. we call Sovereignty–your place in the world and that strength of being able to be here and then to act out from that place, to act in a way that’s supportive of the world, from that sense of that inner land or inner strength.
Maryn, you speak about the individuals who are in your circles and how they have a sense of there's something that I need to unfold within me (which is a way of saying healing within me), so that I am able to be in this really intensely interconnected world at the moment. And it's like, well, do I feel that I have that ability? At this time, we take it for granted, right? My grandchildren are connected–they can do things on their phone that I could never do unless they sit down and teach me in terms of gathering information. It's like everything's at your fingertips, and it's like a fire hose. How can I manage without losing myself in that? If I focus on myself, in my neighborhood, at least I have a place to stand and a place to make a difference, as you were saying in the beginning.
So it's swinging back and forth, but it's also leveling up. In that sense, I feel it's a stronger position to come from–the strength of your individuality, your sovereignty, in the relationship with your neighborhood, in places where you can literally see the difference that you're making with the activism or the actions that you can take. And then when those neighborhoods join together with other neighborhoods around the world, that becomes a very interesting way of making a difference in a societal cultural way. But you're working at the level of this little group talks to this little group, and they become something more through their ability now to communicate across the world with the Internet.
Maryn: What I see a lot, because this is such an age of information, is so much more awareness of what internal wounding actually looks like and how it plays out. Things like communication issues, things like what did I inherit from my parents, and from my community and culture and society. What are the things that I've inherited, that I don't even realize that I'm inheriting, but that I'm playing out in real time? It's this focus and information on how to shift that and actually create healthy personal relationships, create a healthy relationship to self and to heal what has come before, to heal these unconscious patterns that have come before. I see it a lot as there's just this kind of wave of energy coming in to clean everything up. Let's clean up all this baggage that we've been holding on to, let's clean up the fields that we've been incarnating into, and then we can move forward and build something on that that's stronger, that's clearer, that has a foundation of really good communication, not being as triggered by each other, not as much anger and reactivity. This is the dream.
David: That’s absolutely right. One of the experiences that your mom and I had all through the 70s and 80s being aware of communities that had high aspirations, particularly spiritual ones, but foundered on the inability to resolve personal issues and emotional issues. The baggage that people brought into the community ended up sabotaging it. I think you're absolutely right, that the work you're doing and people like you to help clear up a lot of that baggage is vitally important. Would you like to say more about personal empowerment in your work as a coach?
Maryn: This is happening on such an individual level. Yes, there are people that are stepping up to help facilitate it. One of the greatest things that I've ever felt is having someone hold space and having someone provide you with direction and support as you're going through that. This is why therapy has become so mainstream now when it used to be something that people were ashamed to admit that they went to therapy, it was a taboo kind of thing. And now you're seeing people get into relationships and immediately sign up for couples therapy, not waiting five years down the road when they're having issues, but they're starting at the beginning. So it's definitely amazing to have support. And it's something that everybody is doing themselves as well. I don't want to say that it's something that you have to have a coach to do. That's what I don't want to say, because it's just an individual journey. Support is amazing, and guidance and help, and it will get you there a lot faster, in many cases. But most of the work that I did was pretty individual, getting to where I am now. I think that that is also empowering to know–that we are our own healers, and we are our own leaders. We’re the ones leading the way for ourselves and for the generation to come after us and the world as a whole. We're leading every single moment.
David: I understand that your role as a coach is to really help the person discover, as you say, the leadership and healing qualities that are always there. That's basically what we do in Incarnational Spirituality too–it’s an affirmation of what the individual already possesses in the way of resources. But the work tool needs to be done and that's where we can help each other in doing that. Sometimes it's hard on your own to get a reasonable grasp of what needs to be done and how to do it.
Maryn: There are times in our lives that we go through where it's almost this desperate call for someone–please help me through this, I am putting everything into it and can't seem to figure out this one piece. That’s when it's so helpful to have another pair of eyes, or a mirror someone to provide support. There are specific times when it's so helpful.
James: To just go back a moment, when you were talking about this impulse stirring up and bringing to the surface a lot more stuff for individuals to see easier than it was in the 60s and the 70s. It seems like the wave that's moving through now is bringing to the surface opportunities to deal with the baggage. It's like the flood came in and cleaned out everyone's houses basically, and now you've got this stuff floating down the street that you can see “Oh, that's mine. Okay, I'll deal with that.” Or “That's yours. You deal with that one.” It seems like there are more opportunities to see things, to see the truth. It's like things are moving in a way that it's hard to avoid.
Maryn: Ain't that the truth?
James: And it is a time for I.S. as well to provide that because there's significant tools that we have to do that.
Maryn: This is something that I love. I see so many people my age, in the current spiritual generation who are talking about concepts that I've seen you guys teach for years. You guys have been helping people do this for decades. And now the next generation is coming in saying, “Hey! I’ve figured stuff out!” And that's perfect. Every every generation will have its own flair on it, but I am always very proud to see that influence. Good job, guys!
David: Yay!
Maryn: Yay! Exactly.
David: We began talking about different generational perspectives. And I really do believe that that is a reality. Every generation, as James says, is responsible for carrying through a certain impulse. Some impulses are more dramatic and change insistent than others may be. But at the same time, there's a consistency because we're all human beings operating in a continuum of our humanity. It doesn't matter what generation it is–a lot of the challenges remain exactly the same, and the solutions remain the same. But I do believe that new possibilities and new ways of using old tools that in effect, make them new tools are always there as well.
One of the things that puzzled me a few years was the fact that I didn't see young people–people in their late teens and 20s and early 30s–I didn't see them agitating for change in the way they did in our generation. I didn't see them moving out into the world in the same way. And actually, that was why your discussion with me was very enlightening. I came to the point of saying, well, this is a different generation, and the needs are different and the approach is different. It's just as valid as what we were doing back in the 60s and 70s. It's valid, because it's still part of that same wholeness, it's still the human collective struggling to know who it is, and how to make sense of this being here in the world, and how to engage with the world in creative ways. And now the emphasis seems to be very much on individual empowerment and healing–particularly healing. How to deal with a legacy of trauma that all human beings experience in one way or another from all this millennia of human struggle.
I see what you're doing, I’ve seen you over the years, follow your calling, of wanting to be an energy healer, somebody who works to heal the wholeness of the individual, treats the individual as a whole being–not just a body, not just a mind, and not just feelings. You've been exploring different modalities for doing that, but in the end, what it comes down to is you bring your presence to them. The different tools you've developed through your training help you to do that, but still, in the end, it is your presence that is the x factor, the healing factor, just like the devas were the x factor in Findhorn that got the garden going. That really is an Incarnational Spirituality approach as well.
But it's in that level of presence that we find the connection. We about the firehose of information and engagement that happens because of social media–we’re all vulnerable and exposed in ways that we never used to be to social media, especially young people. Learning to handle that, to stand in sovereignty and find their individual wholeness in the midst of all that–I think that is such a valuable skill for moving ahead in the future.
Maryn: Because it's not going away.
David: No. From my point of view, looking at the subtle dimension as an important ingredient here–in a way, social media is a kind of a crude, physicalization of what the subtle dimension is like. It’s infinitely more connected than what we experience here, and yet individuals exist–you’re not subsumed, you're not engulfed in some amorphous wholeness. But you are exposed to immense amounts of…not exactly information, but presences. How do you blend that and hold that without shattering in yourself is, I think, what your generation is learning to do through the phenomenon of social media, developing some skills in that direction.
Maryn: Emphasis on “developing” because it has been such a trial and error. I see that with so many people, so many areas of it. There are people that really struggle in it and there are people that really thrive in it. I find that fascinating. I think that a lot of it comes down to, if we can actually think of social media as an energy web that we're stepping into when we engage in it, a lot of the same energy practices that we take with all the rest of our personal relationships come into play. Like we have to have strong boundaries. Energy hygiene is so important. If I go too long without a good cleanse, a good cutting of cords when being on social media, I find myself angrier and more fearful and experiencing a lot of self doubt. All it takes is just like a cutting of cords and I'm back to center. I think that if more people did that, it would be easier to engage with social media.
But as it is, people are using it unconsciously. They come on and they put all sorts of energy out there that they might not have an outlet for in their everyday life. It becomes this melting pot of wildness. It's the Wild West. And then you're unconsciously signing into it and you're opting into all of that energy. So it really takes intentionality and sovereignty and awareness to be able to use it in a way that's helpful and actually opening and empowering instead of something that's a detriment to yourself.
I see people that don't even have a framework of how to work with it from that perspective and it ruins their lives. I see teenagers who have terrible eating disorders and terrible body dysmorphia, because of filters on TikTok and Instagram, and suicides and depression and anxiety and just terrible stuff just because they don't have the tools to be able to differentiate in that way and they don't have that strong establishment of sovereignty. A lot of them don't.
David: This is really interesting, Maryn. It just got me realizing that what you're describing, what the environment of social media these days is uncoordinated information, just as James said. It’s a firehose, which is actually not true in the subtle dimensions, even though you are exposed to a great deal more information or a great deal more experience or presence. In the subtle dimensions, it’s coordinated, it’s not just all dumped out there. This brings up this interesting idea, which we've been saying in different ways, that the same tools that help you to navigate subtle realms successfully are the tools that would help you navigate the social media environments successfully.
Maryn: I was just going to say, from the same perspective, you can bring that intentionality and those tools to create something really beautiful on social media. Creating it as art, creating it as a gift to the world. There’s so much potential there, it doesn't just have to be a melting pot of terribleness. It can be something really beautiful.
David: It seems to me that this is an experience that's allowing us as incarnate human beings to gain skills that we need in order to take advantage of our engagement with the subtle dimension in the future.
James: It actually sounds as well that here's an opportunity for Lorian to reach out with a very specific program of study. Literally a program of study taught by Maryn, supported by David and James, to actually do this because it's needed. As you were describing it, I was seeing the pieces come together for this program of study. So we're with you!
Maryn: Excellent!
James: Thank you very much for this opportunity to get together and have this not only stimulating, but also advancing conversation.
Maryn: We hit on some good things.
David: So that just means we need to do it again.
James: Yeah, we need to do it again. So thank you very much for this morning.
David: Thank you, James.
Maryn: Thank you so much. Thank you to you both